Listen, guys, everyone knows Marx said "if workers get a private pension they are no longer members of the proletariat" its just common sense guys
@Catsandcatsandcats dude, Marx's whole schtick was that the capitalist class, defined by receiving income from capital, were exploiting the proletarian class, defined by receiving income from labour. How does that work when the proletariat own capital too? And what do you think long-term pension funds are investing in, if not the means of production?
Add to this that the existence of a 401k pension plan, which I have, doesn't change the nature of the employee-employer relationship, the power dynamic of which is at the heart of capitalism's injustice: too much money in too few hands that then use their power to exert control over governance. Me having a pension plan (which could potentially be worth next to nothing if I retire during an economic crisis) does not change the fact that I have to work every day for someone I hate just to have a roof (which I don't own) over my head.
@Catsandcatsandcats Someone has to work in order for there to be roofs. And capitalism's system for arranging this — where employers must to some extent compete for labour — is far more just than communism, where the power is placed in the hands of the State, an organisation which faces *no* competition.
I strongly recommend you read _Time Will Run Back_ by Henry Hazlitt, to understand where power *truly* lies under capitalism (hint: it's not with your boss, nor 'the rich').
@Catsandcatsandcats Maybe 401ks are fucked-up in ways that the British equivalent isn't. I must concede that I am not an expert on US investment markets or law.
But I agree that defined-benefit plans are a bad idea, precisely because of their risk profile. A defined-contribution plan would have just lost some value (and perhaps not that much if it'd been bond-heavy late in life) rather than collapsing entirely.
@soundnfury
That's hardly a good summation of what Marx's writings are about, but...assuming it's accurate, what makes you think 401k's aren't a further exploitation of the working class? We all saw the horror stories of people who retired in '08 and lost their entire pensions--which is why so many workers and leftists opposed defined-benefit pensions plans; it was a Trojan horse to further tie workers' fates to those of capital, essentially the capitalist class extracting dues from workers in the guise of a (shitty) pension plan.